Curse

TGgold · Jun 06, 2007, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toilet Oni

A common technique for killing healers: Attack a rather usless target, make them healers waist their energy and spells on you target, now you run and attack the healer. make sense dosent it?

Edit: spelled sense wrong

Um...don't you think we'd realize that? O_o And also, our recharges are pretty fast on al of our skills. You'd have about a 5 second window from the casting of weapon of warding on the first target to get to me and unleash the spike. Now, assuming i have half a brain and am staying at the edge of my healing range of whoever your warrior was harassing previously, and also that I have a common knowledge of kiting. Tell me how in the world you plan on getting to me with my pants down. =)

ArKaiN · Jun 06, 2007, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

RoF negates damage (upto it's heal amount) and heals even without DF. Vengeful only steals life but doesn't negate any damage. this life steal happens 'after' the initial damage. If the initial damage kills you you will lose the opportunity to steal life.

In short, RoF can save you from death. Vengeful can not. RoF is better than Vengeful Weapon. Divine favour or not.

I'm a fan of both but these are the facts...

Accordingly to the description, you should be correct.
Only you're not. I'm not sure why, but that's just not how it works. I use a 105 life build on my Rt for farming and if I'm at 1 life and I activate vengeful or VwK the next hit heals me, not kills me. Want a real reason why RoF sometimes outperforms vengeful? You're not always gonna get hit for 60 or so damage.

frojack · Jun 06, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

Accordingly to the description, you should be correct.
Only you're not. I'm not sure why, but that's just not how it works. I use a 105 life build on my Rt for farming and if I'm at 1 life and I activate vengeful or VwK the next hit heals me, not kills me. Want a real reason why RoF sometimes outperforms vengeful? You're not always gonna get hit for 60 or so damage.

Hmm... That's peculiar. I've always observed the opposite (I use it quite a lot). I will test your '1 hp' theory. Since your so certain I am probably mistaken and the order is indeed the opposite.

Still, it changes little. Especially with DF...

KikiRae · Jun 06, 2007, 04:12 PM // 16:12

I'll be counting the days when rit's take monks spots in GvG.
'Nuff said.

Toilet Oni · Jun 06, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGgold

Um...don't you think we'd realize that? O_o And also, our recharges are pretty fast on al of our skills. You'd have about a 5 second window from the casting of weapon of warding on the first target to get to me and unleash the spike. Now, assuming i have half a brain and am staying at the edge of my healing range of whoever your warrior was harassing previously, and also that I have a common knowledge of kiting. Tell me how in the world you plan on getting to me with my pants down. =)

with KD m8!

and also, you want to be careful when kiting a shock-axe warrior.

Mekkakat · Jun 06, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

this is my opinions based off of my extensive rit play.

the ritualist allows you to micromanage more field control, rather than to base support from an energy pool, whereas a monk simply pumps out health at the constant dangerous cost of his own energy.

a ritualist can be versitile in the sense of what style of healing as well, just like a monk, but with all of the monks attribute lines in one group.

ex.

VwK>SoJ
RoF (personal taste, and i'll tell you why in a second) VW/WoR
Guardian<WoW
SoR<RW (yes, i honestly believe resil is better. its nonelite, and i have more on it)

***this is all based off of my exp in both pvp/pve, no reason to flame if you dont agree

a monk can take a beating, and hopefully can keep that crazed warrior out of his/her face, but lets compair common styles of play/situations

SoR monk getting slammed by that same shock axe. first off, i think this build sucks. SoR is too predictible, and a good ranger/mes/sin will just stop it, second, its such a gimmick off of the already broken GolE. it eats damage with its +40 al, but in the long run, its a monster on energy pool management.

compare this to the rit who knows how to properly use RW. resil gives a mad boost to armor/regen for little cost, and with renewing memories, you can have it on the whole team in seconds if you like. its nonelite, allowing room for great moves like spirit offering, preservation, or WoR.

another ex. imagine a monk relying on RoF. great, classic move.. but does it really deter people from maiming you? monks only use energy in vain when being attacked, because you'd have to be one idiot of a warrior to stop attacking during Guardian, seeing as it last for a measly 5 seconds, wheras WoW.. well.. you get the point. RoF will save you, VW/WoR wont.. or will it?
get a warrior on you, you boost hp with WoR/VW, see how long he'll like losing his hp to your Grenth style healing, and then we'll see where they compare. VW/WoR are commonly thought of as "healing" moves, when in fact, this is the aspect of "smiting" (remember, rits get ALL of the attributes monks do, but in ONE attribute line). VW/WoR/VwK are all basically smiting skills, that you can choose, or choose not to use, because almost all of the resto moves are great.

the healing skills have little downtime, none more than 5 seconds, and you can manage energy to the max extenet with some fun conditional toys, like holding Generous (an AMAZING self heal/emergency tool), and using soothing memories with channeling on. practically a free heal with your energy regen pipping through your cast time.

just my take on it. i like being more versitile, without spending on 4-5 att lines. i.e. divine/heal/prot/ect.

Toilet Oni · Jun 06, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Considering that RW is not a elite skill, its a very good skill. But then again, removing the hex'es and conditions is way better than covering em with 24armor and 6regen.

But if you dont have the capacity to remove em all, RW i a good chooise

LifeInfusion · Jun 06, 2007, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

I haven't seen any SF teams in PvE if you get what I mean.

As much I'd like to say PvE (hard mode) is too easy, it's not like you can beat everything with crappy bars and without dying even once, so there is a difference who's healing and/or protecting my arse.

Flame djinns in packs of 3-4 in Hard mode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

VwK>SoJ
RoF (personal taste, and i'll tell you why in a second) VW/WoR
Guardian<WoW
SoR<RW (yes, i honestly believe resil is better. its nonelite, and i have more on it)

***this is all based off of my exp in both pvp/pve, no reason to flame if you dont agree

a monk can take a beating, and hopefully can keep that crazed warrior out of his/her face, but lets compair common styles of play/situations

SoR monk getting slammed by that same shock axe. first off, i think this build sucks. SoR is too predictible, and a good ranger/mes/sin will just stop it, second, its such a gimmick off of the already broken GolE. it eats damage with its +40 al, but in the long run, its a monster on energy pool management.

compare this to the rit who knows how to properly use RW. resil gives a mad boost to armor/regen for little cost, and with renewing memories, you can have it on the whole team in seconds if you like. its nonelite, allowing room for great moves like spirit offering, preservation, or WoR.

another ex. imagine a monk relying on RoF. great, classic move.. but does it really deter people from maiming you? monks only use energy in vain when being attacked, because you'd have to be one idiot of a warrior to stop attacking during Guardian, seeing as it last for a measly 5 seconds, wheras WoW.. well.. you get the point. RoF will save you, VW/WoR wont.. or will it?
get a warrior on you, you boost hp with WoR/VW, see how long he'll like losing his hp to your Grenth style healing, and then we'll see where they compare. VW/WoR are commonly thought of as "healing" moves, when in fact, this is the aspect of "smiting" (remember, rits get ALL of the attributes monks do, but in ONE attribute line). VW/WoR/VwK are all basically smiting skills, that you can choose, or choose not to use, because almost all of the resto moves are great.

the healing skills have little downtime, none more than 5 seconds, and you can manage energy to the max extenet with some fun conditional toys, like holding Generous (an AMAZING self heal/emergency tool), and using soothing memories with channeling on. practically a free heal with your energy regen pipping through your cast time.

just my take on it. i like being more versitile, without spending on 4-5 att lines. i.e. divine/heal/prot/ect.

Who uses VwK and SoJ outside of farming?

5 regen from Resilient weapon doesn't save you from a sin. sins operate on high +attack damages, which are armor ignoring. Weapon of Warding on the other hand, might save you if they don't use expose defenses.

What half decent monk uses Glyph of lesser energy and Shield of Regeneration to tank a warrior? A hammer warrior no less. That's a strawman argument. That's like someone saying using Life + Consume soul instead of heal party.

Besides, saying a Ritualist has little downtime is kind of wrong. Monk skills have 3-4 second downtimes which is more or less the same thing as Ritualist skills. The craptastic Glimmer of Light recharges in 2 seconds, Dwayna's Kiss charges in 3. Monks can use channeling too. That is a mesmer skill.

What half decent monk uses 4 attribute lines?

frojack · Jun 06, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

Accordingly to the description, you should be correct.
Only you're not. I'm not sure why, but that's just not how it works. I use a 105 life build on my Rt for farming and if I'm at 1 life and I activate vengeful or VwK the next hit heals me, not kills me. Want a real reason why RoF sometimes outperforms vengeful? You're not always gonna get hit for 60 or so damage.

You were right! That's fantastic! I never realised it before (I guess being that low and surviving is rare

). So WoR/VW 'does' save you from death. In a similar fashion to RoF. I did the '1 hp' tests.

It would appear the damage exchange happens at exactly the same time with no apparent order, and your well-being is determined by the final numbers.

I likely attributed damage generally exceeding the healing package of the weapons spells to their seeming inability to save you from death. Where as RoF always seemed to do just that, while in reality it's healing package is just far superior while having almost the same functionality.

Very interesting. Really goes to show how strong prot is. RoF negates damage equal to the amount it heals for, then heals on top of that. Never mind the DF bonus. In comparison the weapons are just far worse.
The offensive nature of them kinda' makes up for it, but by how much? Not a lot in my opinion. Prot is so over-powered, it's infuriatingly biased design ^_^.

Mekkakat · Jun 06, 2007, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Flame djinns in packs of 3-4 in Hard mode.

Who uses VwK and SoJ outside of farming?

5 regen from Resilient weapon doesn't save you from a sin. sins operate on high +attack damages, which are armor ignoring. Weapon of Warding on the other hand, might save you if they don't use expose defenses.

What half decent monk uses Glyph of lesser energy and Shield of Regeneration to tank a warrior? A hammer warrior no less. That's a strawman argument. That's like someone saying using Life + Consume soul instead of heal party.

Besides, saying a Ritualist has little downtime is kind of wrong. Monk skills have 3-4 second downtimes which is more or less the same thing as Ritualist skills. The craptastic Glimmer of Light recharges in 2 seconds, Dwayna's Kiss charges in 3. Monks can use channeling too. That is a mesmer skill.

What half decent monk uses 4 attribute lines?

first off, this is the campfire, which is pve, second, i was simply compairing skills to monks skills, not even putting them in situational subjects as far as SoJ to VwK. on top of that, tons of monks use SoR paired with GolE in many situations, so that point is totally invalid. rits have also been said to have bad downtime with heals, which is incorrect, i simply said they have great recharges, can continue healing, and keep good consistency in battle. Glimmer sucks, and dwanyas is a bad example if you say that resil is a bad move. dwanyas is based off of how poorly you let your team do, and to me, sucks. also, im aware channeling is a mesmer move, it simply has much more synergy with resto rits than it does with protters.

and finally, what good monk DOESNT use 4 att lines, or at least 3 with a 4 sets skills?

Gift-healing
divine-obviously
prot-main skill set
utility-your choice

what game do you play??

Toilet Oni · Jun 06, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

RoF will save you, VW/WoR wont.. or will it?

lets take the worst case scenari, you are at 1 hp and a Lightning Orb or is flying towards your face, you use WV, 57-75=-18hp
With RoF it will look like this 76-56=20hp

Do you prefer to do 57 lame dmg to your target and die?, or do u prefer to live?

ArKaiN · Jun 06, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toilet Oni

lets take the worst case scenari, you are at 1 hp and a Lightning Orb or is flying towards your face, you use WV, 57-75=-18hp
With RoF it will look like this 76-56=20hp

Do you prefer to do 57 lame dmg to your target and die?, or do u prefer to live?

You, my friend, are a Sophist.
Lets say you're at 60 life, there's an assassin hitting you and he's at 30 life. What do you prefer, killing him, or living to get hit another time then die? Then he heals, and kills your whole team. There, you not using VW just cost your team the match.

RoadKill97 · Jun 07, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Flame djinns in packs of 3-4 in Hard mode.

Flame djinns are warriors.

There are never more than two of Ruby or Immolated djinns in one group, and usually there is only one of those djinns. The groups triggered by touching either of the "Do Not Touch" treasures are an exception.

Both Ruby and Immolated djinns are defensively weak, so offensive is your best defensive, not bringing something like Recovery.

(Sorry for off-topic.)

LifeInfusion · Jun 07, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

first off, this is the campfire, which is pve, second, i was simply compairing skills to monks skills, not even putting them in situational subjects as far as SoJ to VwK. on top of that, tons of monks use SoR paired with GolE in many situations, so that point is totally invalid. rits have also been said to have bad downtime with heals, which is incorrect, i simply said they have great recharges, can continue healing, and keep good consistency in battle. Glimmer sucks, and dwanyas is a bad example if you say that resil is a bad move. dwanyas is based off of how poorly you let your team do, and to me, sucks. also, im aware channeling is a mesmer move, it simply has much more synergy with resto rits than it does with protters.

and finally, what good monk DOESNT use 4 att lines, or at least 3 with a 4 sets skills?

Gift-healing
divine-obviously
prot-main skill set
utility-your choice

what game do you play??

Who was talking about PvP? There are hammer warriors in PvE, like those Shambling Mesas and warden of the forests.

I have never seen SoJ /VwK outside of farm builds. Please enlighten me.

I haven't seen GoLE + SoR used ever since GoLE was moved to Energy storage. But that's just me. More so, I haven't seen people try to tank hammer warriors using Shield of Regen either.

If by great recharges you mean "more or less the same recharge as monk prots"...
Reversal of Fortune =2 --> less than Vengeful Weapon
Guardian =2 --> less than Weapon of Warding's 5secs
Dwayna's Kiss =3 --> same as Mend Body and Soul /Ghost Mirror Light
Light of Deliverance=5 --> way less than Protective was Kaolai
Gift of Health =5 --> more than Spirit Light, same as Soothing Memories
Dismiss Condition =3
Wielder's Boon =4
I really don't know why I even bothered comparing the recharges, as the usage of the skills isn't even the same.

Regarding consistency, of course they are consistent. The heals are more or less fixed except for Spirit Transfer/Spirit Light weapon and Vengeful Weapon/Weapon of Remedy.

Dwayna's reacts to prot. If you stack enchantments it heals for way more. Resilient weapon gives ~6 regen +24 armor for 10 energy and doesn't save someone if they got degen-ed by Corrupt enchantment and the like. Besides, not all hexes are lethal, and those trigger off Dwayna's Kiss as well. I really don't see how it sucks. I never said Resilient Weapon is a bad move, just that it isn't all that energy efficient as it is supposedly cut out to be.

You don't need to pump up 4 attribute lines of the monk, that was my point. In your post you said smiting/prot/divine/healing... Probably a misunderstanding

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

Flame djinns are warriors.

My mistake, I meant the Ruby djinn. Thanks for catching that one.

Toilet Oni · Jun 07, 2007, 12:50 PM // 12:50

posted in the wrong thread

sorry

shoogi · Jun 07, 2007, 01:26 PM // 13:26

u guys can spend all day long comparing rt's and monks, they both got their advantages and disadvantages.
I think that rt's are better healers, but their problem is that they rise and fall with their spirits. once u kill the spirits, the ritualist becomes useless (since about 90% of his skillbar will be boosted by a presence of a spirit).
A ritualist advantage is that they dont use enchantments. (can also be a disadvantage in rare situations)
Another ritualist advantage is spirit light (wupass skill).
A monk advantage is hex removal skills which the ritualist lacks (must rely on second proffesion- monks, for example, can be secondary warriors for defense).
So, basically, it all sums up to what ur build is.
A rt will be ideal in builds like nr/tranq.
a monk would be better in enchantment based, spirit-less builds.

When it comes to pve, i prefer rt since the mobs aint wise enough to attack the spirits. and, SLW is a 1337 pve skill (tho i dont fancy depending on regen-healing, since it almost always ends up as a waste of energy).
anyway, my pve ritualist is doing great in all aspects of pve.

one last thing- as a response to what was said here, i think that rof is a very overrated skill. the problem about it is that u cant count on it- who knows if ur gonna catch the 100 dmg eviscerate or the 10 dmg wand? VW always heals its 60~, therefore it is much more reliable. (VW still isnt worth bringing, because of the presence of better weapon spells such as SLW, RW or WoS.)

Mekkakat · Jun 07, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

all i have to say is this. hardcore monk supporters would never play without a healer and a protter, and the same thing goes for rits. a rits is stupid if he tries to be both the spirit spammer and the healer, so chooe one or the other and synergize. you guys make it sound like the rit is a one man team.

Cebe · Jun 07, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

all i have to say is this. hardcore monk supporters would never play without a healer and a protter, and the same thing goes for rits. a rits is stupid if he tries to be both the spirit spammer and the healer, so chooe one or the other and synergize. you guys make it sound like the rit is a one man team.

This is true, and it's annoying me. Stuff like this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

once u kill the spirits, the ritualist becomes useless

...is rubbish. My restoration build utilises ONE spirit, Life, and if that isn't up, it's not "game over". I'm not "useless"... Sure you lose a little health with Spirit Light if there isn't a spirit around....but...YOU'RE THE HEALER. Just keep to the back and you'll be fine.

The whole "Rits are rubbish without spirits" debate is a load of nonsense. Rits are good without spirits, but with spirits, they're supreme.

Geishe · Jun 08, 2007, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Spawning power buff to weapon spells makes Weapon of Warding or Resilient Weapon extremely amazing.

Weapon of Shadow is also viable now.

Trylo · Jun 10, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

well... i dont think it is implemented yet... but ive been goofing with a build in RA and its pretty much the most amazing healer ive seen in a loooong time

15 Spawning (to get 5e spells down to 2e), 13 Restoration, 4 WS

[skill]Serpent's Quickness[/skill][skill]Attuned was Songkai[/skill][skill]Soothing Memories[/skill][skill]Wielder's Boon[/skill][skill]Vengeful Weapon[/skill][skill]Weapon of Warding[/skill][skill]Resilient Weapon[/skill][skill]Weapon of Shadow[/skill]

now weapon of shadow and weapon of warding are kinda redundant together, but its still nice to have both... so basically i can outheal almost anything, give weapon spells to the entire party and spike heal with wielder's... its very good and its a great utility healer. ive only really tested it in RA and TA, but ive been able to heal through anything really... 2 assassins on an ele? np, just use WoS or WoW. they just lost. its amazingly easy and fun. try it. now.

edit: I forgot to mention i was called a 'half-healer' before i even used any skills ... then i was the one keeping the monk alive... who eventually quit the game in denial...